A couple of months ago I tackled the question of what it takes to be an MVP. It was an exploration of how former MVPs had ranked in terms of four important categories: PER, Team Wins, Points Per Game and Win Shares. At the time, Derrick Rose was heating up as the MVP favorite and I wanted to dive into the numbers to see if he had a legitimate shot at the MVP.
Looking at where the majority of MVP winners had ranked in those four categories over the years and where Rose was this year, I concluded that Rose couldn’t or probably shouldn’t win this years MVP. I didn’t rule it out as a possibility (Steve Nash won back-to-back MVPs win far worse rankings) but I certinly didn’t think Rose was the odds on favorite. The main reason I didn’t think Rose had a good shot at the MVP was because he was hurting in the one major category voters look at: Team Wins.
Flash forward two months and a healthy Chicago Bulls team is now in sole possession of first place of the Eastern Conference. Rose has been sensational this season, improving almost every single statistical category and leading a team who finished .500 last season to a 50-19 record. The ESPN-hype machine is pushing it’s Derrick Rose propaganda and Madison Avenue is about to turn into a river from all the drool from Derrick Rose’s fan club. If Rose wasn’t the MVP favorite two months ago, he sure is now.
And I can understand that. He is the leader of this team, both on paper and in our eyes. He has the swagger, the stats and the highlights. But the fact remains that Rose doesn’t lead the league in a single stat. In fact, he doesn’t even make the top five in any metric. Not in points per game, assists per game nor steals per game. Even in the advanced stats, like PER and Win Shares , Rose is a very good player, but not a top 5 performer.
The one number that does stand out is the wins. The Bulls have crawled their way up to the #1 seed in the East and that’s no small accomplishment. For this reason alone, Bulls fans are ecstatic. The rambunctious Chicago fan base is hungry for another Michael Jordan and more importantly, the championships that Jordan brought and for that, they are hopeful that if they have the MVP, the rings will follow. I can understand all of that, and I do.
MVP Candidates:
Rose is certainly a top flight MVP candidate. But I’m still not convinced that he deserves the MVP. Let’s take a look at where Rose ranks among other MVP candidates:
The chart above tracks PER, Team Wins, Win Share, Win Share Per 48MP and Points Per Game. All the data came from basketball-reference.com and is as recent as 3-24-2011. I decided to include Win Shares Per 48 MP (WS/48) this time around because some guys had missed time yet contributed greatly when active and WS alone doesn’t account for that.
When you glance at the chart above, you notice a few things. The most glaring is that Rose isn’t in the top five in a single category except for Team Wins. Total wins is a funny category to me when considering the MVP race since it is a Team accomplishment that plays a major role in determining an individual award, but that’s a topic for a different time. Like I mentioned earlier, the MVP award has no clear cut rules or stipulations. Is it the best player in the NBA, the player most valuable to their team, the best player on the best team or a combination of all three? We don’t know exactly what constitutes an MVP and no one will come out and explain it. I guess the NBA front office loves ambiguity.
What we do know is how players have been selected before. Again, looking back at Part.I of this MVP debate, we saw that Team Wins and PER have been heavily favored in MVP voting. Typically, the player that finished with the best Win Shares usually takes home the NBA’s MVP award. In the last 20 years, 13 times has someone finished #1 in Win Shares and won the MVP. 12 times, they have had the best record in the NBA and 9 times, they have led the league in PER. Points Per Game has been the worst determining factor, only 6 times has the MVP also led the NBA in scoring and only twice if you take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Now looking at the chart above, Rose is not #1 in a single category. He ranks 10th in PER, 7th in PPG, 2nd in Team Wins, and 15th in WS/48.
A Rose By A Different Name:
I’m not so sure Rose is the best point guard in the NBA, let alone the best player. His game has been nearly identical to Russell Westbrook’s this year. Rose has the advantage in some stats and Russ leads in others, but overall, it would be hard to tell who was who. Take a look at this chart below and tell me which player is Rose and which is Westbrook:
Difficult, right? Player A is Rose and Player B is Westbrook. The real difference between the two has been the overall team records and the public perception. Russell plays in a tiny market in a division that houses 4 playoff bound teams amidst a very difficult Western Conference. Westbrook also has the label of sidekick to Superstar Durant. It’s not his fault he’s been mislabeled and this season he’s been more of a 1b than a #2. On top of all this, OKC had some success last season and the team is seen as better overall when compared to the Bulls, but that’s a misnomer.
The Bulls have a great team this year mainly due to the various additions from the off-season. The addition of offensive players like Carlos Boozer and Kyle Korver have helped Rose out by giving him viable options on Pick’N'Rolls or Drive-N-Dishes. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the addition of C.J. Watson, Keith Bogans and Ronnie Brewer has turned the Bulls into a defensive juggernaut. Many maintain that Rose carried this team while Boozer and Joakim Noah missed a combined 50 games this season and for that he should be rewarded. But this makes little sense to me. While both Boozer and Noah missed long stretches of the season, Rose has always had a combination of either Boozer and Luol Deng or Noah and Deng. I think many have severely underrated Deng’s contributions for the season. He’s putting up nearly 18 points, 6 rebounds and 2.5 assists a game this year and has been a wrecking ball on the defensive end. All of this from Chicago’s 3rd or 4th option. Another thing people are forgetting is that Chicago hasn’t been on top of the East more than a week now. When Booz or Noah were out, the Bulls were somewhere between 4th and 3rd. Only when they had their full roster did they blossom into a championship contender, but the general rhetoric around the blogosphere makes it seem like the Bulls have been #1 despite their injuries and it’s all due to Rose.
Looking at the similarities between the two players brings up an interesting question that Tom Ziller tackled this morning; If Rose and Westbrook switched teams, would Westbrook be the odds-on favorite to win the MVP? I think so, only because Chicago’s roster and coaching staff is better than Oklahoma City.
The Bulls Are A Defensive Team:
A few other factors that hurt Rose are the fact that his greatest contribution to the Bulls comes on the offensive end, yet the Bulls aren’t winning because of their offense. last year, the Bulls ranked 27th overall in ORtg, scoring 103.5 points scored per 100 possessions. This year they rank 13th with a mark of 108.0. An improvement, sure, but they are still, no one is mistaking this Rose lead offense as a high octane machine. The Bulls have been winning because of their defense. Their DRtg jumped from 105.3 (11th) last season to 99.9 this season, the best in the NBA. This jump is attributed to the additions of great defenders to the roster and the defensive mastermind behind the Boston Celtics recent championship run, head coach Tom Thibodeau.
Measuring for defense is a difficult task since no real reliable metric exists. But we do have some decent ways to calculate for defense and one of those is Adjusted +/-. Overall, Rose is a +8.46 for the season. That means that the Bulls outscore opponents by 8.46 points when Rose is on the court. That mark is better than both Dwight Howard and Kobe Bryant but worse than LeBron James and his own teammate, Luol Deng. This figure seems to back up how good Rose has been, but when we pull back the curtain, we see that without Rose, Chicago has been just as good, just different. With Rose off the court, Chiacgo still outscores opponents by a margin of 7.56 points per game but it’s not because their offense keeps firing at a ORtg of 110, it’s their defense that takes over. With Rose out of the game, the Bulls only allow 92.6 points per 100 possessions. That mark is not only incredible, it’s the best in the NBA. This is mainly because Brewer, Gibson, Watson all do a superb job in executing Thibodeau’s defensive schemes. It’s not part of the reason the Bulls are 51-19 and in first, it is THE reason why.
Stacheketball contributor Jason Frazier made a good point in our email round table about this topic: “Answer this: Is Rose a first-team All-NBA guy? I don’t think so. Bron, Dwight, Dirk, Kobe, Wade. I think there is little debate that Kobe and Wade have been better than Rose, although you could argue for another forward if you wanted (Durant, Love), but I’d still go with those 5. If a guy isn’t clearly All-NBA, can he be the MVP?”
It’s a great question and one that I think should carry some weight. If Rose isn’t a sure fire All-NBA First Team guy, how can he be the MVP? I’m not sure if Rose will or will not be voted into the All-NBA 1st team but that doubt alone should be enough to question the idea of him as MVP. Another thought that always runs through my head is who would I want playing for my team right now. If you could build your own Dream Team around one guy in the NBA right now, not accounting for age, potential, or future accomplishments, who would it be? Would you really take Rose over LeBron or Dwight right now? Would you take Rose over Wade or Kobe? i’m not sure I would and I’m not sure most non-Chicago fans would, either.
At this point, no one can stop the Rose-4-MVP stamped. It’s almost a lock, but the question I have is “Is he deserving?”. I’m not sure I want to say yes. So, if Rose isn’t worthy, who is? It’s a though questions to answer and we’ll get to it in Part. III of the 2010-11 MVP discussions. In the meantime, you can find Part.I here.
(Photo via Yahoo! Sports by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)
Shane is a contributor to Stacheketball.com, LarryBrownSports.com & NBAoffseason.com. You can find him babbling about basketball all over the net or tune in as he tweets nonsense on twitter @Suga_Shane.
Shane you are an ASSHOLE!!!!!!!! Derrick Rose is by far the constant that has kept the Bulls where they are, AT THE TOP!!!!
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BALL HUGGER ALERT!!!!!!
I'm with you on this one! What this fool doesn't understand i that night after night D. Rose electrifies the NBA.
Shane baker, you don't make much 'basketball sense'. Rose hater. Your blog sucks.
hey shane, how can you say that Rose isn't the MVP? Even if he's not in the top five in all statistics but leadership wise and the competitive drive that he has always will be credited by the media and sports fans… maybe you don't know basketball.
You make valid points. Lebron is great, but the Heat aren't getting it done. If you can't close out games, you shouldn't be the MVP. Rose has made the clutch baskets when called upon. He is the face of the Bulls right now. I do think Howard is playing like a beast though. I'm a Bulls fan, but if Howard won the award, I would understand.
That is crazy> Rose is b far the best PG in the league. What else do you expect from the kid. zhe was good when he came into the league and he has only gotten better. He can make the jumper know and he is a beast going to the hole. The Bulls fan I am not but I love the team they have assembled and Rose is the anchor. Rose is one of about 3-4 you just cant stop. He put 42 on my Spurs. Rose can do what he want. Westbrook is good but no jumper. Deron I felt was better but Rose passed him. He is too strong for Rondo & CP3. Wall is too young. Nash or T.Parker cantdefend him. Curry cant do anything with him. Baron too old. Who is better?
Kevin Durant makes Westbrook better, i mean who would you double and you cant double both. What player on the Bulls roster makes Rose better?, how good would rose be if he weren't the focal point of defenses night in and night out. Wade, Lebron and Bosh no defense can focus on just defending any one of these players. Dwight Howard or Derrick Rose is the MVP in my opinion and the Bulls have the better record, but you cant go wrong with either one.
Kevin Durant makes Westbrook better, i mean who would you double and you cant double both. What player on the Bulls roster makes Rose better?, how good would rose be if he weren't the focal point of defenses night in and night out. Wade, Lebron and Bosh no defense can focus on just defending any one of these players. Dwight Howard or Derrick Rose is the MVP in my opinion and the Bulls have the better record, but you cant go wrong with either one.
Note: as for the defense improving while Rose is on the Bench, this improvement may be more attributed to the opposing teams starters going to the bench. in general the better players and scorers start.
Funny Rose does not lead, but only player in top 10 in assists and points in the league. I would rather have 1 player top 10 in 2 different stats than 1 player in top 5 of 1 category. Get a clue Shane Bulls have best record in East yet only 1 all star in all star game. Where are the teams with multiple all stars in the all star game? Behind the Bulls.
typical blogger that doesn't watch the game, just the stats
In my humble opinion, you article shows the low value of basketball statistics. Watch NBA games and see how Rose creates opportunities for his team to outscore the competition. None of your stats move me more than what I see as those created opportunities. That being said, Dwight Howard is the most valuable player in the league. Without DH on the Court, the Magic is not even a .500 team. Without Rose on the Court, CJ Watson could still lead Chicago to a thrid-place standing.
Bob,
My sentiments exactly. Dwight Howard leads his team in FG%, Points, Steals, Blocks and Rebounds. His team is one of the best defensive teams in the NBA despite the fact that Hedo, Jameer, Richardson, JJ, Gilbert, and Anderson are regular rotation players. Those guys are terrible defenders, yet Howard makes up for every single one of them.
What Rose does is incredible to watch as a highlight reel because he’s so fast and can jump out the atmosphere and his body control might be the best we have ever seen, but outside of that, he isn’t the best point guard in the NBA. His numbers are nearly identical to Westbrook’s but he has a better team. Like I said in the article, if Westbrook was on the Bulls, does that make him the MVP favorite? Your teammates shouldn’t make you the MVP. The MVP should make your teammates! Perfect example is LeBron James and the Cavs. He elevated that team to 60+ wins two years in a row. What has that roster done without him?
Anyway, the real thesis here is that the Bulls are the Bulls because of their suffocating defense, not Derrick Rose’s highlight reel. I absoluteley love Rose’s game. I’ve even made t-shirts to celebrate how good the kid it (nbaoffseason.spreadshirt.com) and I know that he’s one of the best and most exciting young players we have. But to call him the MVP? I’m not ready for that and his game isn’t ready for that.
Thanks for reading,
Shane
Dwight Howard should have been the MVP last season and the one before that, but that's another conversation. I will admit that without Howard, Orlando would be garbage defensively, but offensively they would be exactly what they are now. An out of sync, three point shooting team. Howard is extremely out of place on the Orlando Magic basketball team offensively. In fact, there's Orlando three point shooters, and then there's Howard. Anyway if a team has only ONE big its almost automatic that he would be able to lead the team in several catagories, and therefore the team would be lost without him. And that doesn't make him the MVP, it makes Orlando's General Manager and Team President look even more incompetent. Also you guys have heard of the Defensive Player of the Year award right? That's what they usually give the best defender in the NBA, not the MVP.
You think Dwight should have been MVP over LeBron James?
Shane. Here is a FACT. Your chart is NOT ACCURATE. THE BULLS HAVE WON 51 GAMES AND NOT 21!
Oh, and do you have a statistic that measures HEART?
Rose is not MVP of the NBA. Maybe the Bulls but not the whole league. Lebron James is irreplaceable. Like the write said, if you swapped Westbrook and Rose, would it hurt the Bulls? No. And Westbrook IS a team guy. I think it has to be the toughest year yet to decide but my hunch says they will give it to Rose, no matter what the argument is!
They said DR. J was irreplaceable, here came MAGIC JOHNSON, they said he was irreplaceable, here came MICHAEL JORDAN, they said he was irreplaceable, here came KOBE BRYANT…….LEBRON has only made it outta the second round of the playoffs twice in his career. He has the same talent level and style that Vince Carter had in his prime, nothing more nothing less.
you approved a comment with someone calling you an ASSHOLE? Why moderate this forum at all??? lol
You can call me an asshole all you want. It doesn't offend me and ad hominem attacks just make the commenter look stupid.
We moderate for spam and highly offensive language. Calling me stupid or an asshole isn't offense. It might even be the truth.
the award is not a statistical analysis, its who is the most valuable player to his team. the way rose has played has allowed the team to win 50 games even though there have been significant injuries to both Boozer and Noah. He wins the big games (swept the heat) and he has come through in the clutch. There are people who have better stats in the league, but no one has had as big of an impact as rose had this year.
The biggest impact on the Bulls has come via Tom Thibodeau and Paxson. Thibs has turned a meddling Chicago team from last year into the #1 defense in the NBA. And paxson has added some of the best pieces that the .500 team desperately needed last season.
Thibs deserves coach of the year but the key addition (boozer) missed significant time and noah did too. Rose was the only constant and without his constant MVP style play, the bulls wouldnt be where they are now. and if you are going to make the argument that rose isnt by himself and thats why he doesnt deserve the mvp, how can you give it to lebron who is playing with dwade and bosh, or even howard who like rose, has solid role players in jameer richardson tukoglu etc.
I think you are wrong and I'm not even a Bulls or Rose fan. You can skew the stats to tell whatever story you want, but no other player is putting a team on his shoulders and carrying them night in and night out by himself like Rose. He's hitting clutch shots and making tough plays in the crunch time. Are LeBron and Wade doing that? Is Dwight the go to guy at the end of a game? Only Kobe is close in this category and even he seems to be on a downhill slope due to health and age. Kobe might be the real MVP but because we expect more (and have seen more) out of him he won't him. Aside from him Rose runs away with it this year.
Like I said in the article, Rose is NOT by himself. Boozer averages 18, 9.3, 2.5 on 53% shooting. Deng is good for 18,6,2.5 every night plus he’s one of the best wing/swingman defenders in the NBA. Noah is a double-double from tipoff every night. Their bench is nothing but defensive specialists and sharpshooters. To say Rose is alone tells me that you don’t know how basketball and basketball teams work.
Who is your MVP then? Shouldn't the MVP be the man you want with the ball in his hands at the end of a game with ice in his veins. We've all seen the struggles the Heat have had late in close games and I certainly don't want Dwight getting fouled and going to the line late in a game. Rose gets help but only he and Kobe and taking over the 4th quarter of games and are knocking down clutch shots…
First off let me establish the fact that I am a Lakers fan. However, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. And this year I have to give the bulls all the credit. They puttin it down. They playing championship ball. Now on the subject of MVP. Now if you follow this articles logic, by sheer numbers alone, Kobe Bryant should have been the MVP from 2004 until 2009. They screw over Chris Paul to give Kobe his one MVP when two seasons previous he averaged well over 30 points per (not even going to talk about 81pts or multi-60pts games). Then in comes Lebron (while in Cleveland fitting an almost identical description to what this guy is saying about Derrick Rose) in the NBA not even 10 seasons and already has 2 MVPs. What makes his MVP seasons so much better than the one D ROSE is having this year? Was he number one in Points and asssist? Did his team win a championship? HELL, WERE THOSE 60+ WIN SEASONS CLEVELAND WERE HAVING THE TEAMS, OR LEBRONS? But then again, the NBA hasn't given an accurate MVP award Since Shaquille O'neal won it, they'll probably give it to Blake Griffin
LOOK LETS GET THIS OUT IN THE OPEN. LEBRON JAMES HAS PROVED NOTHING EXCEPT HE CAN GET TRIPLE DOUBLES.
The Bulls have won 51 games and not 21. Your number suck!
Furthermore, where is your number that measures HEART
Good catch. I fixed that typo.
Thank you . So sick of the slobbering Rose fans you see him get the ball stolen from him and shoot that horrible FG % . The hype machine is in full effect Lebron, Howard, Deserve it more its the most valuable player ( the best player this year) not the fing hype CB who want Jordan back.
Poor argument to say that Rose is not First Team All NBA.
Wade has not been better than Rose this year. Rose has replaced Wade at guard on the First Team All NBA. It appears that will happen this year officially.
At this point in their careers, there is a legit argument that Rose is a more coveted player than Wade. If all the NBA players were put in a draft, Rose should be drafted before Wade:
1. Rose is younger.
2. Wade has been injury prone in his career – further highlighting Rose’s health thus far in his career. Wade’s injury prone status showed up this year in some of Wade’s missed games. Wade has missed numerous games in recent years. That is probably part of the reason why Wade has not advanced past the 1st round of the playoffs since 2006.
3. Rose has become a better outside shooter than Wade.
4. Rose is also more humble & hustles more – This often doesn’t show up on stat sheets: There is no stat for how many loose balls are recovered etc. But that is key to winning close games – and the Bulls have won more close games than Wade’s Heat… The Heat are like 4-9 against top teams this year. Bulls were like 7 – 3 last time I checked. largely because Rose sets the tone for his team by hustling & playing hard nose basketball.
Wade has become a diva who perhaps leads the NBA in whining to refs about no foul being called because he has developed such as sense of entitlement: “I’m a star. I’m entitled to a foul call when I drive to the hole”. The fact that Rose is humble is why he spends his offseasons working hard in a sweaty gym taking 3 pointers…. so in the long run, that humility should keep him in a professional mindset & make Rose a better player. Wade in contrast spent last offseason jumping on stage and comparing his team to being as big as the World Trade Center bombing… then sneering bitterly about America being happy about his struggles. That is not good leadership – neither by word nor example.
4. Clutch play at the end of games: This year, Rose has been the vital player when the Bulls need a shot to tie, win, or need to close out a game with a push in the final 2 minutes. The Bulls are not a great offensive team (until recent blowouts) because this is their first year together and one key offensive player, Boozer, has been injury prone.
But even when the Bulls upgrade their guard situation this offseason, Rose will be the foundation of that offense. Everything starts with Rose: His speed ignites fast breaks, his speed/quickness draws defenders to him and opens up lanes & shooting space for teammates.
Wade & Lebron have each other to turn to & take pressure off of each other. Deng has been a solid contributor for the Bulls but the offense never starts with Deng… Almost always w Rose.
Wins & losses are a huge factor – moreso than quantified simplifications like some PER stat that journalists devise. Watch the games & see how a team plays to decide how a player/MVP causes his team to win. If this were the MVP methodology, voters would never have made the mistake of naming Malone the 97 MVP – because voters would have broken down game film and noticed how Jordan wills his team to win with clutch shots, key steals or free throws in close games… whereas Malone sadly became known as a guy who missed big free throws in big moments and missed fadeaway jumpers in the clutch rather than take the ball strong to the hole)
Wade & Lebron lost lots of close games because neither have been great shooters to win big games in their careers (Wade has been eliminated before the Conference Finals for most of his career). If Wade is the man on his team, he hasn’t been that great a closer. Wade may have great open court athleticism – therefore when he & the Heat are defending well, that translates into running up the score with fast breaks. But in close games, against good teams, the Heat don’t have a great record because top teams do not allow as many transition baskets – the Heat struggle with half-court chemistry. If Wade were a better shooter – like Rose has become so far this year – the Heat would not have as many problems.
Rose’s creation of mismatches by both being able to shoot + being too quick to defend creates open looks for his teammates like Korver and Boozer. Wade, in contrast, has had an identity crises: Lebron’s presence has put question marks in the Heat team as to who should take charge of the ball at the end of close games. Since the Heat’s 5 game losing streak, Wade has had the ball more. But Wade’s failure to close out close games when he could throughout the year (resulting in the Heat’s poor record in close games) gives Rose another edge in the All NBA and MVP race… these awards need to consider the ENTIRE season’s body of work.
Rose has been more steady, consistent and outstanding than Wade, resulting in higher scoring and more assists than Wade.
As for Russell Westbrook, lets emphasize that winning & leading your team to wins is a key to the MVP award. Westbrook does not have the pressure of carrying his team on offense – Rose has that pressure … and has led his team to a better record than Westbrook’s team.
Comparing stat lines is not the proper analysis: Breaking down game film in key moments of the biggest games is the more relevant method of observing MVP status. MVPs make the big plays in the close games against key rivals that set up future playoff confrontations: Rose’s performance in wins against top teams such as San Antonio (over 40 points),
Rose is not a machine who looks to pad his scoring or assist stats: He’s a great human being who adjusts depending on what his teammates need. I know because I read the journalists who witness this play by Rose everygame courtside: The news reporter can hear Rose asking teammates & coaches “How can I get so-and-so involved in the offense”. Rose has been this way since high school: Coaches have testified that Rose would get his teammates more scoring opportunities so they could get college scholarship offers. Then at Memphis, he would set up other players so that they could have good stats & get drafted.
This may sound too idealistic & fictional fairy tale to some of you cynics & jaded people, but that is Rose: a breath of fresh air in this NBA full of selfish arrogant boastful stars.
Those are just a few reasons why Rose is likely to win MVP at some point in his career – if not this year.
That's nice and dandy and all, but the MVP isn't awarded based on who would get drafted today based on their age and their future career, which hasn't happened.
The MVP is rewarded based on who's the most valuable player RIGHT NOW, as in this season. Has nothing to do with the past or future.
Back to Rose, I know all of you have a hard on for DRose right now, but your Point Guard should be taking 22 shots and missing 14 of them.
Your right, however most pointguards are not the best scorer on the team. D. Rose's will to win is second to only Kobe Bryant's. That's why, like kobe, D. Rose does what it takes to win, night in and night out. He's out there playing 1 and 2 guard, racking up points and assist. Sure his field goal percentage has fallen, but his outside shot attempts and makes have risen. If his ability to create good offense from seemingly nothing wasn't so great, his primary position would probably be shooting guard. But only a fool would take the ball out of his hands. His offensive I.Q. is off the charts!! He passes the ball when it counts, and knows when it's go time. Lebron could learn a lot from him, I'm telling you!!!
As a Bucks fan this is hard to say but Rose is the MVP this year , and you can look at the stats and the numbers but for me the bottom line is Rose has taken his game and his team to another level this season. He has become a truly elite player in the league and i feel that he has been the total package this season. Bottom line numbers are not everything , winning is the only thing that should matter and rose has won more games for his team then either LBJ , Wade or Kobe have and he plays with a far less impressive supporting cast then players listed above.
And there it is…. The truth!!!!
You made a fatal flaw: you tried to base an MVP award on statistics alone.
Also, an MVP is based on who is most valuable to his TEAM, not the league.
Rose certainly deserves the honor. 30 pts and 17 assists tonight against the Bucks.
The NBA must need a stat for 'puts his team on his shoulders and pulls out a win'. I think D Rose would be in the Top 5 there – probably #1. Would that make him the MVP?
And have you seen the guy's sheer SPEED when he drives to the basket? If he doesn't get MVP, he ought to at least get a speeding ticket!!!
No. Howard would be number one. LeBron number two. And Dirk number 3. Chicago's defense is what wins them games. And there's tons of proof for that.
D. Rose's will to win is second to only Kobe Bryant's. That's why, like kobe, D. Rose does what it takes to win, night in and night out. He's out there playing 1 and 2 guard, racking up points and assist. Sure his field goal percentage has fallen, but his outside shot attempts and makes have risen. If his ability to create good offense from seemingly nothing wasn't so great, his primary position would probably be shooting guard. But only a fool would take the ball out of his hands. His offensive I.Q. is off the charts!! He passes the ball when it counts, and knows when it's go time. I've never seen anything like it, it's incredible to watch. Lebron could learn a lot from him, I'm telling you!!!
LISTEN EVERYONE BECAUSE THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, It does not matter who the MVP of the season is. The guy who wrote the article even said it himself. The player that wins the MVP most likley will not when a championship. All that matters is who wins the NBA Finals MVP because only then have you truly carried your team to the top. Oh how I wish they waited until after the playoffs to name the MVP. That way we can see who's valuable when it counts!!!
We love all the hate we recieving about D.Rose being the M.V.P. facts and numbers don't lie you can take your Le Brons,Dwight Howards and keep'em those guys are crybabies D.Rose is from Chicago in the Englewood neighborhood we don't cry around here we work hard and are humble and that's the mentality D.Rose has you don't see him dunking on people and looking at his bench when his team is losing like Le Bron or gettin t'd up all the time like Howard he just goes about his game like a real pro class that's why he's an M.V.P.
Well if you go by your numbers, you are stating that LaBrick Lames should be this year's MVP and yet he has Wade and Bosh on his team. Wouldn't that mean whatever his stats are this year they don’t count BECAUSE of his supporting cast? Rose is the only Chicago Bull that made the All Star team and he was a starter. He had to deal with injuries to Noah and Boozer throughout this year (Noah was out for something like 30 games and I have no idea how many games Boozer missed) and Chicago has risen to the top of the East anyways. I get what you are saying about "the team" aspect of basketball and Chicago's suffocating defense, but without Rose, Chicago's offense wouldn’t be as good, Rose makes plays and defenses are always looking at him first even when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands. Will he win the MVP this year? That's to be determined. Does he deserve it? You bet your ass his does….
You can’t say the Bulls have won despite missing Noah and Boozer cause without BOTH of them, the Bulls weren’t in first, they were in 3rd place.
Also, being a All-Star game starter means NOTHING. It’s a fan vote, Yao Ming was selected a starter and he’s played 10 games this season.
Speaking of the All-Star game, the Bulls are 14-3 since the break, in that same span Rose is shooting 41% for 24.9 points, 6.8 assists and 3.5 turnovers. Like I said, the Bulls win despite what Rose does on the offensive end because the real MVP of this team is their DEFENSE.
"You bet your ass his does…. "
You bet your ass his does…. not
*fixed*
all these arguments that support Rose are dense. by your standards then Durant should have won it last year, and he didn't. the only award Rose deserves to win this year is Most IMPROVED Player, definitely not the MVP. Kobe deserves a good shot at the award, but more than likely will get over looked because he is expected to be great and is taken advantage of. Howard should have a good chance but he will more than likely not get it because he is the most unappreciated star in the league. Dirk should also be in the top tier of the discussion but he is getting shunned as well. Lebron does not even deserve to be in the discussion, either does Wade they both contribute fairly equally on their team and are 2 of the top 5 players in the league. If ESPN wouldn't talk about how Rose looks like an MVP every 5 minutes there wouldn't be this much hype over him, Durant didn't win when he improved his teams wins by 27 games so why should Rose get this much attention?
Durant last year was gud but not as gud as wat Rose did this year. He took a .500 team from 8th last year and they are now first overall. He is in the top ten in points and assists. He was playing without either Booz or Noah for more than half the year. Plus he has done more with less. Kobe cant get it b/c he played with another allstar (Lamar couldve made it also). Lebron and Wade are out of the question b/c they play with each other. D Howards team wasnt good enuff fourth place in the East wont cut it for MVP. If anyone else is n the race id say Dirk cus his team is horrible n he carries them.
well, time for hindsight to speak.
1. drose is all-nba along with lebron, kobe, durant, and howard. so you can go ahead and throw out the drose isn’t all-nba how could he be mvp theory.
2. westbrook made 2nd all-nba while chris paul is 3rd. again, further proof that being the best at your position does not entitle you to certain awards. while one may think each all-nba award goes to the best player at their respective positions, that is not true.
3. tired of everyone’s interpretations of what most valuable means to them. the award’s criteria aren’t based on what you think ‘most valuable’ means. it’s a title, but it’s not open for interpretation. best player on best team. best team meaning usually, with few exceptions, a top 4 team and the player most responsible for that team’s success. when there are years with no clear cut mvp’s in the league, it has gone to the team that has exceeded expectations and then nominating that player deemed responsible for that success (how else can you explain steve nash as back to back mvp winner?).
6. time to re-argue rose as a deserving recipient of the 2011 mvp award. rose’s campaign? look up vegas odds for the bulls at the beginning of the season. 14-1 odds to win the championship, 8-1 odds to win the east with the heat, magic, and celtics favored ahead of them. that is NOT the kind of odds you give to the team that just finished #1 overall in the regular season with 62 wins. exceeded expectations WHILE finishing in first place? check. oh let’s also look at rose’s supporting cast. boozer’s underachieving performance now that he doesn’t have sloan’s flex system simply reinforces the fact that rose is carrying this team. take a look at the top 4 teams (bulls, heat, spurs, lakers). PER of all the players – you know what makes the bulls special? only rose, of his teammates, has a PER over 20. every other elite team has more than 1 player with a PER over 20. every other team in the league has a statistical advantage over rose yet still the bulls are at the top. and despite all this you can give a number of excuses as to why you think derrick rose doesn’t deserve the MVP. yes the bulls are #1 in defensive efficiency. you know who else had the #1 defensive efficiency last year? the charlotte bobcats. so tell me how you would evaluate the difference between the bulls 62 win team and a charlotte 44 win team? what is the value of being the single most important reason a team is ranked 12th in offensive efficiency (bulls) vs. 24th (bobcats 2009-2010)? can a single player with a PER over 20 be the difference? can you just give ANYONE with a PER of over 20 to the 09-10 bobcats and expect a 62 win season? milwaukee and miami of 2009-2010 each had 1 player with a PER of over 20, defensive efficiency in the top 5, yet only 46/47 wins. why? dwyane wade had a PER of over 28 last year with a top 5 defense and they STILL lost.
the hottest trend right now is to use numbers to explain or debunk observations or opinions. lately, i think a lot of people have been using statistics improperly to come to a conclusion. or they think that because numbers don’t support an observation, they have successfully proved their null hypothesis and therefore that observation is wrong. i find that infuriating because basketball is more than just numbers. there are so many variables unaccounted for that for anyone who actually plays and loves the game, they’d understand the value of actual skills whether or not those show up on the stat sheet. observations should drive numbers and theory but it seems commonplace now for many to simply go by numbers or to use numbers as the foundation of an unobserved hypothesis.
any basketball junkie/former player of any competitive level can WATCH the bulls and simply come to the same conclusion. derrick rose DOMINATES the floor, the pace, and the game. you don’t need numbers to tell you that. let your eyes drive the hypothesis.
failpost
For all you "hindsight" posters, please let me know what happened in the playoffs last year when Rose, your MVP, met my MVP pick, LeBron James.